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《希伯来圣经》-08-Donna-Hebrew Bible-读书群20160527

来源:小平 发布时间:2016-6-1 14:26:25
 Donna Gordon 2016/5/27Friday(星期五)8:04:58PM:
So, last Monday we did the story of the Garden of Eden.
(翻译-清辞Wei:周一我们讲了伊甸园的故事。)

There were many ways to interpret that story.
(翻译-清辞Wei:这个故事可以从很多方面去理解。)

On a literal level, it was about man's fall from grace. 
(翻译-清辞Wei:从字面意思上看,是关于人的堕落。)

Grace is God's favor.(恩典是上帝的青睐。)

It essentially said on a surface level that man cannotbe trusted to do the right thing, and so mankind was punished.
(翻译-清辞Wei:从表面上看,这个故事说的是人无法被信任,不能做正确的事,所以受到了惩罚。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:恩典,这个词原来这么重要。堕落,人从神性上堕落。
Donna GordonYes, Fu Feng, Christians talk about Grace alot more than Jews do.
(翻译-清辞Wei:基督徒谈恩典比犹太人多得多。)

I gave you a deeper alternative interpretation of theGarden story last monday.
(翻译-清辞Wei:周一我讲了一个深层次的对这个故事的理解。)

It was not dealing with punishment, but about thetransition from childhood to adulthood.
(翻译-清辞Wei:它讲的不是惩罚,而是关于从孩童到成人的转变。)

Man’s essential nature
人类的本质天性
Donna GordonSo let's now explore the concept of man'sessential nature.
(翻译-清辞Wei:现在让我们来探讨一下人类的本质天性。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:听到这里,我感觉“恩典”这个词,需要被重新翻译成对应的中文。恩典,太二元对立的词了。而Grace,应该是从自身的圆满里,不圆满了。而非相对于上帝(某一外物)的不被施与。

Donna GordonFu Feng, how would you translate Grace to Chinesestudents?(扶风,你怎么翻译Grace给中国的学生?)
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:没想好,但不应该是“恩典”。
cj 1号:恩典有居高临下的姿态。
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:作为一个被基督徒如此高频率提及的词,我觉得用“恩典”,把人带歪了,带到心外求法处。

Donna GordonBasically, it means that God takes favor uponyou.(基本上,Grace指上帝支持你。)

cj 1号:我读圣经的时候,也觉得字里行间都是这种唯我独尊的姿态。
Donna GordonIt means that God takes notice of you andgives you blessings.(意思是神注意到了你,并给你祝福。)
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:是的,如何把高高在上的上帝,变成一种不过自身圆满的引导?
翻译-清辞Wei:神做有利于你的事。
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:这跟佛教也很像呀,报应,轮回,因果,这些,看上去也很压迫。其实不是一般人理解的那样。

Donna Gordon(In Christian belief) the free and unmeritedfavor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal ofblessings.
(翻译-清辞Wei:(基督教的认为) 神的恩典是无偿的,超过人配得的。是以让罪人得救赎和降下祝福的方式。)
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:并没有一个外力,把这些强加给你,只是你自己心识变化引起的一些现象
Donna GordonI go with your definition, Fu Feng.(我同意你的观点,扶风。)
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:是的。

Donna GordonBut at any rate, the Garden story is aboutmankind's fall from God's grace or God's favor.
(翻译-清辞Wei:不管怎么说,伊甸园的故事是关于人失去了神的喜爱和祝福。)

Sin
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:sinners and the bestowal of blessings.这句没清楚,请再解释。
Donna GordonOk, let's talk about the concept of sin. Iwill get the definition for us.
(翻译-清辞Wei:好,让我们讲一讲sin (罪)这个概念。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:整本圣经,就是围绕罪与福展开吗?
Donna GordonYes, Fu Feng, it seems that sin is aroundevery corner and man cannot be trusted to do the right thing according to theBible.
(翻译-清辞Wei:是的,扶风,看起来罪是无处不在的。圣经说人不能被信任可以做对的事。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:原罪说?
Donna GordonA sin is an immoral act considered to be atransgression against divine law.
(翻译-清辞Wei:罪是做不道德的事,是违反神圣的法则的。)

"A sin in the eyes of God"
(翻译-清辞Wei:在神眼中的罪。)

Synonyms: immoral act, wrong, wrongdoing, act ofevil/wickedness, transgression, crime, offense, misdeed, misdemeanor.
(翻译-清辞Wei:同义词:不道德的行为,错误,做错事,做坏事/邪恶,违法,犯罪,等等。)

The original sin was the eating of the fruit in thegarden by the woman.
(翻译-清辞Wei:原罪指的是女人在伊甸园中吃了分别善恶樹的果子。)

More broadly speaking, original sin means that mankindis considered to be a sinner from the moment he is conceived in the womb.
(翻译-清辞Wei:广义上讲,原罪指的是人类从在子宫孕育的那一刻起就是罪人了。)

Fu Feng, original sin is more of a Christian conceptthan a Jewish concept.
(翻译-清辞Wei:原罪主要是基督徒的概念。不怎么是犹太人的概念。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:明白了,那我可以用佛教的词,去对应罪与福——染与净。

Donna GordonIn Christianity, they believe that all menare sinners from birth, which takes us away from God's favor and blessing.
(翻译-清辞Wei:基督教认为,所有的人从出生就有罪,这个罪让我们远离神的祝福和喜爱。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:Sin & Grace = 染 & 净。
染,人类的无明,来自于结构性的意识,第七分别意识,小我。

Donna GordonIn Christianity, the only way that you canget out of a condition of sin is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord andsavior.  His sacrificial death on a crosscleans your sins away.
(翻译-清辞Wei:基督教认为,你能脱罪的唯一方法是接受神做你的主和救你的人。他在十字架上的牺牲把你的罪洗清了。)

Jews do not believe in original sin like Christians do.
(翻译-清辞Wei:对原罪,犹太人和基督教理解不一样。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:我一直强调,佛教的染净的学问,不是善恶的学问。在这里,与圣经对上了。这里也是一直想不明白的,为基督上十字架,就是为世人洗罪?

Donna GordonYes, Jews believe that we all sin from timeto time, and that we are all responsible for our own sins that we do.
(翻译-清辞Wei:犹太人认为我们时不时的会做错事。我们为自己的罪行负责。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:这里是“众生誓愿度”还是“自性众生誓愿度”的问题。
Jiangsu海阔天空  14号:基督教的理解还是有个向外的,寻求依托的。

Donna GordonWe Jews believe that if we sincerely repent(say we are sorry) and change our offending behaviors, then we are OK with God.
(翻译-清辞Wei:我们犹太人认为如果我们真心的悔过(说对不起),并改正我们的冒犯行为,那我们在神面前就是可以的。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:离粘即净。
Donna GordonIn Hebrew, the word Khayt means sin.
(翻译-清辞Wei:希伯来文里Khayt 是罪的意思。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:这也是一切宗教都有忏悔的原因。一忏即出,不再有。让人轻装上路。
Donna GordonA Khayt in Hebrew also means an arrow that isshot from a bow.
(翻译-清辞Wei:希伯来文Khayt 的另外一个意思是从弓射出去的箭。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:在获得神的祝福与个人的罪间,本应是一个很轻易的转换。不需要大动干戈的。
真正的宗教,应该是让人时时觉醒,在罪与福间,在染与净间时时觉醒。而不是在罪的重压下洗净的努力。

Donna GordonIs an arrow shot from a bow always on thetarget?
(翻译-清辞Wei:箭总是能射中目标吗?)
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:不总是能。
Donna GordonNo, sometimes the arrow misses the target.
(翻译-清辞Wei:是的,有时箭会脱靶。错过目标。)

This is the Jewish concept of sin.
(翻译-清辞Wei:这是犹太人对罪的理解。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:脱靶是sin,太好了,不是一种外在的积重,只是一时的错会。用心是好的,但有时行为不得力。
Donna GordonWe try very hard to follow the ways andcommandments of God to be good people.
(翻译-清辞Wei:我们很努力的遵从神的教诲,做一个好人。)

But.... sometimes we commit offenses or sins betweenourselves, other people, and God.
(翻译-清辞Wei:但是。。。有时我们会做错事,对自己,他人,和神。)

上海--陈福美:这个脱靶是无意还是故意?
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:不论有意无意,在性质上已经不同。
上海--陈福美:嗯嗯,有时候我们知道是错事还是去做,做完再忏悔。

Donna GordonSometimes our sins can be intentional andunintentional. The Bible will talk about this later.
(翻译-清辞Wei:有时我们的罪可以是有意或无意的。圣经后面会有解释。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:太好了,今天搞清晰了基督的罪。
Donna GordonSo Jews believe that if we do commit a sin,either intentionally or unintentionally, we can say we are sincerely sorry toour fellow man and God and be free from our sin.
(翻译-清辞Wei:所以,犹太人认为如果我们做的错事,不管有意或无意,我们可以对他人和神真诚忏悔,从而从罪中解脱。)

The story of Noah and the Ark
诺亚方舟的故事
Donna GordonWe continue this theme with the story of Noahand the Ark.
(翻译-清辞Wei:我们继续讲诺亚方舟的故事。)

Mankind has had a chance to be on the earth for sometime now and is acting in a wicked manner.
(翻译-清辞Wei:人类已经在地上生活了一段时间了。他们的行为不好。)

Now in the Story of Noah. We see that man is actingwickedly.
(翻译-清辞Wei:诺亚的故事里,我们看到人在作恶的行为。)

God decides that he has to wipe mankind off of the faceof the earth.
(翻译-清辞Wei:神决定他要把人从地球上除掉。)

However, there is a man named Noah.  Noah is said to be "a righteous man inhis generation."  He walks with God.
(翻译-清辞Wei:但是,有一个叫诺亚的人。诺亚被认为是“他那一代人里的正直的人”。他和神交谈。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:我在读第六节的时候,觉得这诺亚的方舟,不正是道家的鼎炉——丹田吗。只有识运真气,才能解救肉身。顺成人,逆成仙,唯在中间颠倒颠。
Donna GordonYou can look at it that way, Fu Feng, but forthis story I think that there is a simpler meaning.
(翻译-清辞Wei:扶风,你可以这么理解。对这个故事,我觉得有一个更简单的意思。)

Jiangsu海阔天空  14号:为什么要把亚当的后代交代的那么清楚?
Donna GordonIf we want to look at this from a Buddhist ortaoist point of view, we can see that mankind has become very unbalanced.
(翻译-清辞Wei:如果从佛家或道家的角度理解,可以看成是人类变得非常失衡了。)

They are too wrapped up in the physical and primal sideof life.
(翻译-清辞Wei:他们太陷在物质世界里了。)

They are only concerned with the lower senses.
(翻译-清辞Wei:只关心低级的感官层面的事。)

They are acting no better than the animals that werebrought onto the ark.
(翻译-清辞Wei:他们的行为不比方舟上的动物好。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:欲。
Donna GordonThey were separated from their higher sensesand consciousness.
(翻译-清辞Wei:他们和自己的高层感知和觉知断开了。)

Why would God wipe out mankind, but save the animals?
(翻译-清辞Wei:为什么神要消灭人类,但保存动物呢?)

cj 1号:back to the beginning,keep balance.回到最初,保持平衡。
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:把纯净的留下,把染的除去。

Donna GordonThey are not listening to their inner voice,or being in a state of spiritual balance with themselves or God.
(翻译-清辞Wei:他们不听从内在的声音,在和自己和神的关系上失去了灵性上的平衡。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:是的,不再听从内在的声音了。
宁波-应奇yingqi我觉得神也可以看成自然规律。
Donna GordonSo, God says that he regrets making mankindin the first place.  Ouch!!!!  That hurts!!!   
(翻译-清辞Wei:所以,神说他后悔造人了。哎呀,听了多伤人呀。)

宁波-应奇yingqi成住坏空。
cj 1号:跟父母遇上不长进的孩子差不多。

Donna GordonBut, in Chapter 6, verse 8, the bible says"but Noah found favor in the eyes of God."
(翻译-清辞Wei:但是圣经第6章,第8句里说,“但是诺亚在上帝眼里是受喜爱的。”)

It basically says in the original Hebrew that Noah foundgrace with God.
(翻译-清辞Wei:在希伯来原文里,它的意思是说诺亚是神祝福的。)

I also want to state that the story of Noah is notunique to the Jewish Bible.
(翻译-清辞Wei:我想说诺亚的故事不是犹太人圣经独有的。)

There were many "flood" stories that werewritten.
(翻译-清辞Wei:历史上写下的关于“洪水”的故事有很多。)

They were very popular in the Middle East, Israel, Iraq,Syria, Lebanon, Persia.
(翻译-清辞Wei:在中东,以色列,伊拉克,叙利亚,黎巴嫩,和伊朗地区很常见。)

One of the most famous stories is called the "Epicof Gilgamesh”, which is almost word for word the same as the story of Noah inthe Bible.
(翻译-清辞Wei:最著名的故事之一叫Epic of Gilgamesh。几乎和圣经里诺亚的故事字字相同。)

Have any of you heard of this before? (你们以前有听说过这个故事吗?)

The difference is that the characters and Gods aredifferent in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
(翻译-清辞Wei:不同之处是里面的人物和神不同。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:洪水?是真有一场物理的洪水?还是意指什么?发大水?
Donna GordonA flood of water and rivers.
扶风 Fu Feng 2号:世界会被一场洪水摧毁,而有一人独生。

宁波-应奇yingqi太阳纪的历史里有洪水灾难,还有火灾,风灾。
Donna GordonExactly, Ying Qi, a flood disaster story.(对的,应奇,洪水灾难的故事)
宁波-应奇yingqi佛教也有这样说法,火灾烧到初禅,水灾淹到二禅,风灾可以吹坏三禅。

Donna GordonIt is very common for people to talk aboutnatural disasters that have happened to them in ancient times or in recenttimes.
(翻译-清辞Wei:人们经常会谈及古时或近期发生的自然灾害。)

In this story and in the other ancient flood stories,the reason that the floods occur is not due to natural causes, but because Godis angry at man's behavior.
(翻译-清辞Wei:在这个故事里,和其他古代的故事里,洪水发生的原因不是自然原因,而是因为神对人的行为感到愤怒。)

In ancient times natural disasters happened because theGods were angry at the people.
(翻译-清辞Wei:古时,自然灾害的发生是因为神对人发怒了。)

Let's go to the end of the story.
(翻译-清辞Wei:让我们看看故事结尾。)

We know differently now that floods do not occur becausethe gods are angry.
(翻译-清辞Wei:我们现在知道洪水不是因为神愤怒的原因。)
宁波-应奇yingqi人的共业带来的。

Donna GordonAfter the waters go down and subside. Godtakes a look at what he has done.
(翻译-清辞Wei:洪水过去之后,神看到自己所做的。)

God regrets what he has done, and vows to never do itagain.
(翻译-清辞Wei:神后悔他做的事,发誓不再重复他的错误。)

He sends a rainbow in the sky to be his agreement thathe will never try to get rid of man again.
(翻译-清辞Wei:他在天空造了一个彩虹,表示他再也不会除掉人类了。)

Homework
作业
So what I want you to think about until our next classis:
1.  How does theconcept of sin in the bible mesh with what you have been taught in Chineseculture?
2.  Does the Bibleseem to see God as humanlike in its behavior and thought?
3.  Does being ina state of balance between the lower and higher senses help us all to avoidsin?
4. In the short time we have studied the Bible, what doyou think about the nature of God as portrayed in the Bible?
(翻译-清辞Wei:
所以我希望你们在下节课前思考的是:
1.圣经里的罪的概念和中国文化里你们学到的类似概念有什么相同和不同。
2.圣经里的神的行为和思考方式是不是象人一样?
3. 低级和高级感官的平衡能不能让我们所有人避免罪呢?
4. 从我们对圣经的学习里,你对圣经里描述的神是怎么认为的呢?)

Those are the 4 questions that I would like you toaddress for homework for our class on Monday.
(翻译-清辞Wei:上面4个问题是今天的作业。)

Read the story of Noah again, and we will talk a littlemore about some of the other details of the story for next Monday.
(翻译-清辞Wei:再读诺亚的故事。我们下周一继续讲这个故事的其他一些内容。)

I also want to spend some time with your questions andcomments about sin and our story.
(翻译-清辞Wei:我们也会讨论你们对上面问题的答案。)

扶风 Fu Feng 2号:谢谢Donna,今天对罪,Sin与khayt的解释,让我对圣经有了全新的认识。


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